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twoleftfeet 10:21 Tue May 15
I hate David Lammy.

I’m glad I now have that off my chest.

Thank you for listening.

threesixty 12:12 Fri May 25
Re: I hate David Lammy.

mashed

"I'm sorry for the sort of upbringing you must have had to see the world in such a backwards, bigoted, binary and literally black and white way."

How can you see the world in any other way?

In the USA we have young black men being shot for taking out their cell phone.
Shot in the back running from police.
Put in jail in droves for minor crimes.
65yr old black grandmothers dragged from the cars by 5 white officers!
Cant even use a damn starbucks lavatory without 4 cops arresting them!
No one convicted of anything.

Mass incarceration, mass unemployment. Even in the UK which is generally a lot better and even though young black people are often out performing white students they don't get the same job opportunities.

It's all facts.

So forgive me if this view of the world you see isn't "bigoted, binary, black + white".. I live in reality. I have no idea where you reside.

wanstead_hammer 10:32 Fri May 25
Re: I hate David Lammy.

"BREAK"
.
.
.

"BOX ON"

mashed in maryland 9:47 Fri May 25
Re: I hate David Lammy.

I'm sorry for the sort of upbringing you must have had to see the world in such a backwards, bigoted, binary and literally black and white way.

Thinking you have the right to sit there and declare everyone who isn't white is disadvantaged and needs help. You arrogant fool. Pride is one of the seven sins for a reason and as I said I will pray for you

threesixty 1:16 Fri May 25
Re: I hate David Lammy.

Mashed

Your fiancé might not need help but her circumstances are not the same for every person of colour.

I don’t see why it’s so difficult to understand.
The very fact that groups of people are not represented in particular professions or institutions absolutely means something is wrong.

Whatever that adjustment is, whether it’s “help” with extra tuition that richer people can afford. Or whether is the fact that some schools do not push their children in the direction of Red brick universities etc.. I don’t know. But the first part of solving a problem is recognising there is one.

It isn’t patronising to recognize that although you are ok some people like you need some help to realise their potential. I’m sorry if she actually feels that way.

mashed in maryland 9:39 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.

"racism:
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."

Yes, and that is exactly what you're saying when you allege that all people "of colour" need extra help to get to the intellectual level of white people. My fiance is a "person of colour". If you were to tell her that she needs extra help in life because she's not white, she'd probably laugh in your face. It's patronising, factually incorrect, and the very definition of racist.

Again, your inability to understand your own argument demonstrates that you obviously aren't speaking through malice, and are just a bit thick, and one day, you'll probably see the error of your ways.

I will pray for you, brother. No hard feelings.

Mike Oxsaw 6:56 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.

If the ROOT CAUSE of certain sections of society being under-represented at elite institutions turned out to be blokes knocking a bird up then fucking off leaving her (and the state) to raise the poor sod, would you pursue ALL avenues to rectify that problem?

What if it turned out, through diligent & meticulous research, that black men were over-represented in that group. Would you seek a different answer, instead of going for a solution?

What if this is not a hypothetical question/situation?

Bungo 6:15 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.

I do wonder to what extent society is supposed to create a 'fair and level playing field'.

Should this for example extend to 'making' all parents behave in exactly the same way and therefore preventing encouragement, extra assistance and help from those that are engaged with their children's progress, and somehow introducing these skills to parents who have neither the interest nor the ability to encourage theirs?

Some might suggest that whatever else society does, the parents may have more of an influence on their kids progress than anything else..

threesixty 6:11 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.

mashed

Just so you dont make a fool of yourself at a dinner party or something like that..

racism:
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.


and there's me trying to get everyone to have equal opportunities in life and somehow I fall foul of the above definition.. lol

I hope you have the best evening ever!

mashed in maryland 6:06 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.

360, you are making a distinction between "white people" and people "of colour", who, regardless of background or individual merit, you consider as needing "special treatment" in order for the playing field to be "fair". That, I'm afraid, is racism.

However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, as it's clear from your inability to understand your inconsistency with your Oxbridge argument, that it's not intentional, and you really are just too thick to comprehend what you're saying.

Have a nice evening.

threesixty 6:05 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.

Takashi

"it's not all about colour. my cousin had good enough a level grades to get an interview at cambridge. he didn't get in"

exactly. Its about representation from all backgrounds, genders and classes etc... Its not just about colour at all.

Growing up no one spoke to us about Oxford or Cambridge at school. I didnt even know what a red brick university was or what the difference between them was. But kids in private schools or some other richer areas get that drummed into them even in primary school.

And the schools prepare them for this, not just their parents. How are kids from other parts of society meant to compete if they are not being developed in the same way as richer kids?

Takashi Miike 5:54 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.

it's not all about colour. my cousin had good enough a level grades to get an interview at cambridge. he didn't get in, he's white and lived most of his life in barking and had to instead go to portsmouth. did he blame his colour, no. it may have been to do with his working class background though but sadly their are very few do gooders out there who give a shit about the white working class, where is their advocate?

Eddie B 5:49 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.

Not the sharpest tool in the box, old David:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/david-lammy-mocked-for-fuming-at-racist-bbc-after-report-on-sistine-chapels-black-and-white-smoke-8532676.html

threesixty 5:47 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.

mashed

"YOU want these institutions to be forced to be representative of the ethnic background of the general population, therefore YOU must want foreign students to be knocked back, because they're currently over-represented."

NO. NO. NO.

Why do you lie so much?
Whats wrong with you?

YOU are the one who is talking about ALL the students and is not making a distinction between domestic and international students.

YOU have tried to wedge that in here to make your point. I rejected that and have consistently said I am only talking about domestic students and the mp's are only talking about domestic students because that is what they are responsible for.

Its amazing how deceitful your argument is. How can I keep posting that it has nothing to do with international students and you somehow extrapolate that I am demanding a reduction in international students to deal with the domestic student numbers?

Its baffling.

And "people of colour", how is that a racist category? Racism is about discrimination and prejudice of a racial group. How is saying "of colour" discriminating or prejudicial to that group? Its like saying people "with blonde hair" is a prejudice statement?

like wtf?

I don't mind a discussion but wow... the lying.. the bullshit... nah, not here for that.

mashed in maryland 5:26 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.

Yes, YOUR logic. YOU want these institutions to be forced to be representative of the ethnic background of the general population, therefore YOU must want foreign students to be knocked back, because they're currently over-represented.

Its also YOU who thinks "students of colour" (a racist category) aren't capable of achieving anything without outside help, which means you clearly have a very low opinion of non-white people.

You're either too stupid to understand your own arguments or are hiding your racist, divisive rhetoric behind feigned ignorance. Which one is it?

threesixty 5:19 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.

mashed

"It is YOUR logic, not mine, that demands there should be limits on foreign born students at these institutions"

hahahahha

wtf? Where did I say that? You silly idiot.
I somehow DEMANDED that there should be a limit to foreign students? You brought foreign students up and I said its got nothing to do with this discussion and all of a sudden I DEMANDED limits to foreign students??

prick.

Secondly.

"You also think that "students of colour" need special treatment in order to achieve anything. Again, this says a lot about both your politics and you as a person. "

What does that say about me? That I want all people to have equal opportunity? That I think people of colour are disadvantaged in many parts of this society?

HELL FUCKING YEAH

People like you make me annoyed because you're precisely why everything out here is so fucked. What you consider "special traetment" I consider "fair".

Pseudo intellectuals talking utter trash and refusing to see the reality in front of their eyes. Eternal apologists for injustice, always saying everything's ok whilst people are suffering all over the place.

fuck people like you.

mashed in maryland 4:51 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.

"And again, for the final time. You brought in a data point that was not being discussed"

It was being discussed. You said that the disproportionate representation of demographics at Oxford and Cambridge was some societal injustice that "needs looking into". I merely pointed out another instance of demographic misrepresentation in the same institutions. It is YOUR logic, not mine, that demands there should be limits on foreign born students at these institutions. YOU are the one who wants them to be forced to be more representative of the general population, not me.

You also think that "students of colour" need special treatment in order to achieve anything. Again, this says a lot about both your politics and you as a person.

Kindly stop posting, I don't like engaging with racists.

threesixty 4:20 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.

mashed

It is illegal not to go to school. Everyone pays taxes to pay for the education of the country. The government define the curriculum, where schools are built and how much they have to spend.

At what point are the British government not 100% responsible for the educational achievement of the children within the system they control and enforce by law?

And again, for the final time. You brought in a data point that was not being discussed. If you want to discuss how many foreign students a university should take in versus domestic students thats a completely different discussion.

If you think foreign students shouldn't be there or whatever thats up to you. You may have a point (although thats a lot of money for an institution to lose which tax payers would have to fund). But I am not being a hypocrite by discussing the makeup of the domestic students at Oxford.

mashed in maryland 4:07 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.

"the British Government is 100% responsible for british students of colour achieving the best they can"

LOL! Heaven forbid that people be responsible for themselves. If you think that "students of colour" need government intervention in order to achieve then that says a lot about you.

I will repeat: it is not whataboutery to point out that foreign students are over represented at Oxbridge when your entire point is moaning about white students being over represented. Otherwise you are picking and choosing who you want equality for. You are upset that in your eyes not enough black students go to Oxbridge. Fine. However to be consistent you must also be unhappy about other groups being over/under represented. Otherwise you are a total hypocrite.

Lato 3:56 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.

Whatabouterry?

Apparently if Villa get promoted via the play-off final John Terry will take up the option of a further year contract, but doesn't have to play against Chelsea.

Weird!

threesixty 3:23 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.

mashed

"But on a macro level the system is set up to always give that white male an advantage anyway"

Yes, but I've said no one is explicitly denying opportunity to the marginalized. So how can there be a conspiracy if no one realizes they are doing it? That's why I make a clear distinction between institutionalized prejudice and just straightforward prejudice. A conspiracy can only be one if people know that they are conspiring right?


As for your British-born students are under represented.. I think (i may be wrong) that the discussion has always been about the proportion of those British born students and their ethnicity and not about foreign students.

Again, because this section of people and their prospects are the responsibility of the UK government for which Lammy is a constituency representative.

It would not be the remit of anyone in parliament to discuss the ethnicity of foreign students at Oxford. Especially as the UK is not responsible for the educational process that gets any international student a place at Oxford, whereas the British Government is 100% responsible for british students of colour achieving the best they can. Thats why we pay our taxes right? So that government can do whats best for us and our children regardless of ethnicity?

Therefore, once again, I will say you are conflating two issue and enjoying a level of "whatabouterry"

mashed in maryland 3:01 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.

But you did say it was a racist conspiracy. You said "But on a macro level the system is set up to always give that white male an advantage anyway". That would be the definition of a racist conspiracy. Please remember the things you say.

Its not whataboutety to discuss the percentage of foreign students at Oxbridge. Your point was about one type of student being under-represented, and how unfair it is. So I pointed out that British-born students are statistically under represented as well, so if Oxford and Cambridge were to be truly representative, then they'd need to do something about this disparity as well.

So, my question remains. What must we all do about this injustice?

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